What do you “really” believe?
I live quite near the white cliffs of Dover in England. With its rich green grass, gleaming white cliffs and deep blue, or battleship grey sea, depending on the highly changeable weather, it’s a beautiful place to walk, and I love to walk my dog, Bailey.
But frankly, it’s really not a great place to take Bailey.
The problem is that the cliffs are high, this thing called gravity exists, and Bailey really, REALLY loves his ball. There are no fences on these cliffs so you can walk to the very edge of the beautiful but surprisingly unstable precipice.
Now I believe in gravity. Someone at school must have told me about it once. I can’t see it or prove it theoretically. In fact, I don’t think I could even find a book in the library that can tell me what it is, though one helpful bumper sticker I saw, stated, “Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks!”
Whatever, I just know it exists.
That means that getting near the crumbly windswept edge, or worse, throwing Baileys ball in that direction, is at best unwise and at worst, downright stupid.
So I don’t do it.
I have a good degree of confidence that should I lose my footing or get swept off the edge by a gargantuan gust of wind, I would plummet dramatically and at high speed to my sure demise on the wave worn rocks below. I can’t prove to you that would happen, I just kind of know.
Unlike me, Bailey doesn’t really believe in gravity… or at least he doesn’t much care. Bailey cares only for the ball.
And that’s why we spend our walks in the woods.
Do You Really Believe It?
Cool story, Geoff. Why are you telling us about walking your dog?
Well, I’m trying to illustrate something. Because I believe in gravity, I change where I walk Bailey. In fact I change a number of my life decisions and opinions based on my “gravitationist” belief system.
For example, I typically refrain from popping outside for a breath of fresh air while on a commercial flight. I also tend to avoid spitting directly upwards into the air above my head.
Because I believe in gravity, I make certain decisions when it comes to my actions.
After 25 years of being a Christian, my world was rocked when I was finally confronted with something that happens all across the world every day.
Death.
My Dad died. I loved my Dad, but my Dad didn’t love God, or if he did, he didn’t let on to anyone that this was the case. His death hit me hard, and so I turned to my evangelical faith, which was supposed to be my source of comfort.
I had so many well-meaning friends say they don’t know how unbelievers can deal with death without their faith. The problem is that my faith told me that dying without acknowledging, loving and believing in God sent you to Hell to be tortured without relief, forever. I was bereft, and my faith wasn’t helping me much at all. As I looked at my Dad’s now lifeless face in the hospice, I came to a very real and very painful question: if my faith system mandated that my dad was currently experiencing fiery torment, did I really believe it?
I had friends come up to me and say, “Well we can’t know his relationship with God.” Others clutched at theological straws, saying stuff like, “His faith expressed many years ago would surely save him,” but ultimately, none of these platitudes seemed to get to the heart of the issue.
The question that gnawed at my soul was what did I truly believe? More specifically did I believe that God was punishing him right now with eternal torture?
I realized with immediate and shocking certainty that I did not. I had a moment of truth, where I looked square in the face of eternal conscious torment and said, “I don’t believe you.”
That set off a long chain of events as I plunged into deconstructing my faith and all that went with it, but what it has left me with is a litany of questions about what we say we believe and what we really believe.
If we truly believe something, it can’t help but influence how we act.
So when the majority of evangelical churches say in their statements of faith that they believe in eternal conscious torment for the unbelievers, how are they demonstrating that faith?
Where do they walk Bailey, metaphorically speaking?
If we’re honest, we tend to treat Hell like a sort of guilty secret which we know about but don’t like to bring out in public. It’s not so much a case of being ashamed of Christ. I get the feeling that the modern evangelical church is subconsciously ashamed of the story, which is why it’s so rarely discussed outside of extremely fundamentalist settings. I completely understand their reticence to preach everlasting torment and why grace and love are quite rightly given the spotlight.
And that’s the problem. That’s where we see the disconnect between stated belief and true belief.
The Emperor’s New Clothes
As I have discussed my problems with the doctrine of hell, I have been astounded by how many people will confide in hushed tones from the side of their mouth that they are not sure about Hell. In fact I would guess that if I sat down, one by one, with a typical church congregation, that the majority do not in fact believe that God holds individuals who don’t know him in torture forever.
Their problem is that to admit this goes against what they think everyone else believes. This is a classic example of Anderson’s The Emperor’s New Clothes being played out in our churches every day. We leave the nakedness of the emperor unchallenged because it would require us being brave enough to stand up and say, “Hold on a minute…” [1]
It’s perhaps no mistake that a child calls out the emperor’s nakedness in the famous story.
Of course this is just one doctrine among many and we can discuss the various opinions and theories that are out there, but the point is, if people really believe that hell is real, why don’t they act like it? If we really thought that every man, woman and child were destined for an eternity of agony, would we not be out on the streets screaming in the face of everyone to “please, please, listen!”
But we don’t. Why? Because, I suspect we don’t really believe it. The preachers I hear deliver the harshest sermons usually come from a long line of Christians and maintain an exclusively Christian community. It’s very easy to dissociate themselves from anyone who might be in danger of experiencing this tortuous afterlife.
Hell was my turning point, but it’s far from the only one. Our faith is replete with examples:
- We say we believe that God speaks through the Bible, but it’s a well-documented fact that very few Christians spend any substantial time reading it.
- We say that God heals but largely leave it until the end of the service, between the last song and after-service coffee, to pray for anyone… if we do at all.
- We say we believe that we should love our enemies, yet our nations wage nationalistic wars and we justify killing in our societies.
- We say we believe that we should care for the poor and the outcast, yet we fear and reject refugees and vote for those who pass laws in the opposite spirit of Christ.
The point here isn’t that we need to “pull our socks up” and get on with what we say we believe. That is mere compliance, and our churches are already quite proficient in guilt trips. The real challenge is to find out what we really believe, and then do it.
That takes honesty, perhaps honestly that can only be found in the heartache and pain of loss and death and sickness, when our empty pseudo beliefs get revealed as the sham they are.
Richard Rohr call this “necessary suffering” – suffering that brings with it a maturity and realism which church dogma so often lacks – an authenticity that results in action [2].
I Don’t Believe You
When we really believe something, we act on it. It influences our behavior.
God can be trusted with our questions and he will not reject us for asking them. He wants not our intellectual assent but our genuine selves. That’s where belief becomes transformational.
So let’s live by what we believe. Let’s care for the poor and feed the hungry and love our enemies, even when it’s so very difficult to do.
And when we find ourselves living in opposition with our supposed beliefs, let’s have the courage to ask ourselves, “Is this really what I believe?” and when we realize we don’t, let’s have the boldness to look at those ideas and say…
I don’t believe you.
So pleased to receive your page. As a former J W. , I too have a difficult time accepting the teaching on Eternal Torment , I am also a mid acts Pauline believer! Find it impossible to faithfully attend any fellowship !
Hi Bebe, yes finding where you go after a deconstruction of faith is the real challenge ahead of all of us. The wonderful surprise I found is that far from falling away, as my churches may have warned, I have found that God doesnt let go of us and in fact I am finding my mind clearer and that suddenly I am finding him again. I have been really helped by Richards Rohrs teaching on contemplative prayer which keeps me connected to him. As you engage in these conversations there may be others you just find a natural connection with. Thats your church. I found Wayne Jacobsen book Finding Church really helpful for this.
Thanks for the article Geoff. I’m wondering, have you read C.S. Lewis on the subject of hell (for eg. from his ‘The Problem of Pain’ or ‘The Great Divorce’)? If so, what are your thoughts?
Hi Harley, yes I read The Great Divorce when I started to look into the traditional teachings on hell. As so often with CS Lewis he blows things right open and I was relieved to see another approach that made some good sense. I particularly love this quote…
“Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others… but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God “sending us” to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE hell unless it is nipped in the bud. ”
This was the first time I connected with the idea of hell on earth, in this lifetime, now, and it makes sense in the light of the suffering we see on fields of Flanders, in Auschwitz, in Darfour. Much more than purely an after life retribution, but something which we choose into now and can suffer it and bring it upon others. I feel that is what Jesus was getting at particularly when he roasted the religious elite at being pious yet ignoring compassion and justice. As so often with this conversation I don’t go with all that CS says (he thinks so deeply I probably don’t even understand much of it!) and certainly wouldn’t claim to have all the answers, but I do have a conviction that God is far more kind and compassionate that I will ever be or could comprehend. Never ending torture for torture’s sake does not line up, for me, with God as revealed in Jesus. You have got me wanting to read it again now!
Bless you for sharing this Geoff, really appreciate it, may I ask how long it is since you believed in Conditional Immortality, I came across a few wonderful Christians who shared this truth with me, I went away and studied as if my life depended on it.
I always did have a problem when I read John 3:16 about God loving the world yet Christians were telling me all unbelievers will go straight to hell and burn forever and then be judge at the judgement seat of Christ, only to be thrown back into this eternal conscious place of torment, eventually once I realised that when Christ has put all enemies under His feet and becomes subject to the Father, when death and hades (which is translated wrongly as hell elsewhere) are cast into the lake of fire (which hell fire preachers will tell you is hell) all things are made new, a new heaven and a new earth, no more death or suffering and God becomes all in all, like Eden was supposed to be if man had not fallen, my question to those who believe in eternal torment is, where will this eternal torment take place because hell has been destroyed.
Revelation 21:3-5 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.”
Sorry if I have gone on a bit here but to know that God is a righteous judge and all judgement should be left to Him, we have wonderful good news to share, let’s do it.
Hey Andrew, I came across conditional immortality through Edward Fudge’s book “The fire that consumes” I found that a really compelling argument and the idea of annihilationism sounded much more consistent that an eternal torture chamber. It also quite rightly raises the question of where the idea that we have any life outside of God, came from “.For in him we live and move and have our being.’ Acts 17:28. If God withdraws from us or allows us to withdraw from Him, there is no life, not even for torture! Greg Boyd also talks of a chosen withdrawal from God can only lead to ceasing to be.
I think that’s where I still sit, though Sharon Bakers book “Razing Hell” suggests an even more benevolent answer in that the “burning fire of Gods goodness” is redemptive not retributional. There is judgement but when all is burned away there is hope again. Its an Interesting and compelling interpretation. I have found that once I started to ask these questions honestly and without agenda, there have been a few moves in position and that’s OK, I am seeking truth not dogma. I am sure that God is good and God is love and that His version of justice will be vastly more compassionate than I or any human is capable of. Thanks for your comment bless you on the journey.
Jeff appreciate your reply, yes Edward fudge book was part of my library, although I came across this teaching through the Concordant Bible Society who hold to Universal Reconciliation that all will eventually be saved so I must get hold of Sharon Bakers book “Razing Hell” and see what she reveals.
CBS also are ultra dispensationalists, they believe God has a plan for the Church (The Body of Christ) and Israel who they believe to be the Bride of Christ, I did follow this teaching for some time but I have since come to the conclusion that the Body and Bride are one and the same. CBS are lovely Christians who know and love the Lord without a doubt, I am not one to let dogma divide unless it was to deny the Lordship of Christ, His virgin birth and resurrection, I am open to discussion on all things 🙂
We must chat again, would love to share and of course meet new brothers and sisters in Christ.
By His grace
Andrew
Hi Andrew, I think your approach of finding ways to stay in communion with those who you might disagree with is a very wise one. I have tended myself to move away from some of the rigid explanations and dogmas so prevalent in the church, but that doesn’t mean that those who hold such views are not walking their own journey with God, and as such our responsibility is to love them. If they try to lock opposing beliefs down it is sometimes right to move away but do so as a kind departing. None of us have all the answers no matter how confident we can sound! But God is good and wants to be known, the search is a beautiful thing, not a battle to be fought with other believers. I am really happy to chat some more. This is what church is for! Cheers Geoff
Hi Andrew, just on the subject of, body of Christ/bride of Christ.
I was asked ” where did Adam get his wife?”, and very obviously Eve came from Adams own body. Christ will receive his wife from his own body.
So when the body of Christ is fully developed a bride will be possible. . . that may well occur when Israel accepts and trusts in Jesus as Gods provision but only because the body is complete and not because the bride is Israel.
Cheers
Richard
Thank you Andrwe for mentioning John 3:16. Unlike many evangelicals (used to be one)…the verse doesn’t stop at just 16. You will need to continue/include verse 17 as well for it to make sense. If you don’t…de Sade and others show more compassion and are more forgiving than a sadist version of God evangelicals love to embrace. Add to this…I personally believe many Christians are just as much of sadists as their version of God and want to hurt as many people as possible. Hope I’m wrong…but my personal experience tells me otherwise.
Spot on….great article….I have had the same necessary suffering…..and feel so much more at peace….
Thanks Dennis, it is a huge weight removed when we can be honest and authentic and the brilliant thing is that God is still there, more loving and more ready to be known than ever. In his book “Drops like Stars”, Rob Bell talks about the idea that pain wakes us up and connects us in a way that no amount of comfort and hedonism ever can. I have found that to be true and though loss and suffering hurt, they bring reality and an end of pretence. That is indeed a peaceful place to be.
Wonderful article, thank you. We can but hope and trust that, like a tiny pinch of yeast, thoughts such as these will somehow effect change in the church at large. Keep writing, please! Sherrilou
Hi Sherrilou, thanks for your kind words. I am convinced that the conversations we are now having are part of a movement of God. A re aligning with the Spirit and a faith that we can share with utter conviction and confidence. Lets face it, pretending is a painful and empty game but when we get real with each other, an amazing connection happens. I think God can do great things through this.
I agree with you .. having said that, this merely begs the question of whether Christians are serious about what they believe. That is, this article doesn’t answer the question of eternal torment, it simply questions belief, as your title started. Eternal torment is a long-standing doctrine within the western church, and overturning that will take a generation of serious deconstruction. I know. I live in the middle of the bible belt.
Hi Owen. yes that’s true. The hell question is huge but is just one of many doctrines that need a new and honest approach, take your pick; divine violence, 6 day creationism, women’s rights and the list goes on . My point is that its the pseudo belief (belief stated but not enacted) we need to challenge. People far smarter than I have tackled the question of hell (Greg Boyd, Sharon Baker Edward Fudge, Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, Richard Rohr, CS Lewis among others) so that wasn’t my intention here, but as you say, a new generation is coming that wont continue to just accept what they are told, especially when they see it flies in the face of God’s character in so many ways; and that’s a good thing! Next time I want to tackle our approach to the Bible as that is perhaps the next stumbling block for many people in the church. For some its a kind of veto to any common sense or discussion, so we need to learn to read it in Christocentric way, value it and maybe unpick some of the tangle we have got ourselves in. I think there is cause for optimism though, things are changing and in the 37 years I have been a Christian there has been a seismic shift. We don’t need to worry about being angry at the established church for its old dogmas and habits, but find ways to bring a new and passionate expression of church. Eventually those old ways will pass away if we are brave enough to wrestle with the questions, speak up and not be complicit in prolonging the pretence. Thanks for the comment. Cheers Geoff
O my goodniess. This is such a profound article. Thankyou so much for this insight. Thankyou for articulating what i have been feeling for 20 years.
Thanks Joseph, that’s very encouraging. Its something I have felt deep in my soul for many years but maybe only now as I’m getting a bit more old and grumpy that I have had the courage to stop worrying about what others think and try for once to be real! I too have played those games but I think if we can stop that and start talking with hearts that are for one another, we can really bring the Kingdom that Jesus was talking about.
Thank you for your article. I’ve always felt that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment maligned the character of God, who loved us enough to send His Son to die for us, Jesus, who prayed for those who murdered him.
I’d like to share an article I’ve been working on, directly relating to this topic. It still needs a good deal of editing, but even in its rough stages, this seems like the perfect time and place to share it. I hope you’ll read it and I’d be happy to know why you think. I apologize, it’s rather long at this stage.
Your brother in Christ,
Michael Hurwitz
Here it is:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bnJpZU88HYpetWvjTFcUSPU0MebSOpqfu2bzacGi1PQ
Hi Michael, Thanks for your comment and for sending your article. It covers much of the ground of Edward Fudges book “The Fire that Consumes” and that chimes well with me. It would be interesting to address the ultra Calvinist point of view (such as Edwards and Piper). Some of the numerous scriptural quotes could maybe go into an appendix to retain the narrative flow of the text. Well done on such a thorough search.
I’m so glad that you think the emperor is naked, because so do I. There are some tenets and principles that I wholeheartedly believe about Christianity, and some I don’t. I’ve also shared with God on what I believe and don’t. I follow my spirit and heart, and just focus on deepening my personal relationship with him. When it gets into the gray, I just make sure to hold God close to me as my staff. Thank you so much for writing this and sharing. You are definitely not alone. Keep writing.
Thanks Victoria, when I first “found” God I was drawn by His spirit surging within me. Like the thief on the cross I had no teachings or theology to convince me, I just knew deep down that I was loved. Its only as the journey continues that the baggage of all that we are “supposed” to believe begins to weigh heavy. We can normally hold on for some time but I see it time and time again that people often live with a theological veneer until the world caves in. Its true that some issues need to be wrestled with and I am not suggesting a pick what you like approach, but the God we love is consistent and faithful and when our doctrines or dogmas conflict with that we should indeed challenge them. I am loving Richard Rohr’s daily medidations, have a look, you may find them helpful. God bless.
Can I suggest it is not about what you or I choose to believe but it is all about what the Word of God says, assuming I am diligent enough to study it. Our Lord Jesus Christ was very clear in His teachings while here about Hell. We have trouble accepting the idea because we are sinners with a poor understanding of God’s holiness – we think He should tolerate what we compromise with. Let’s start with 2 Cor 5:11… “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men…” then maybe we’ll really practise our faith and urgently witness to those around us.
Hi Kyle, thanks for your comment. I do understand what you are saying and it was perhaps my first response when I realised the gap between what I said and what I did. My point here was really for us to take an honest look at what we believe and why and then act accordingly. We will be at different places on that journey. The question of Hell was merely my starting point. You raise an interesting point about “the word of God”. When I looked outside of the enclosed teachings of the evangelical church I was in, I realised that there are in fact many different understandings of what Jesus meant by Gehenna and what he was trying to communicate. I was surprised to find that these opinions come from Christian orthodoxy going back through church history, and I found that some of the writings of people like Edward Fudge, Sharon Baker Greg Boyd, Tom Wright, C.S Lewis, Richard Rohr helped me. We should continue to wrestle with scripture and understand that there are conflicting and valid views without the extremes of thinking there is only one view or dismissing the Bible as irrelevant. What I was trying to say is that as life goes on and pain and trials come it can cause us to face up to our previously held convictions and open our minds to the fact that that niggling feeling in the back of our mind, the that all is not right, may just be God wanting to move us into a place where we can be truly authentic. Bless you on your journey.
Interesting post, thanks. I became a baptized Christian in 1993, a very touching time in my life, filled with the Holy Spirit, scripture, and many inspiring books. A great time. Then in 1997, I went through a “trauma”, heart/soul. I moved on and have not come back to prayer and study until 2014. And recently dealing with deliverance, and actually writing about “my trauma” in 1997. Skip ahead to today: part of my morning “ritual” is something I wrote called “My Philosophy, My Way of Life”. This states my beliefs about God, and reaffirms just “what I do believe now”. It helps me steer clear of books and things that maybe called “New Age”; so “My Philosophy” gives me a clear measuring method when “New Age” (and the sort) information is sent to me; emails, texts, books from people and friends. Recently I stashed in a bin all my old business books, simply because in my old life, business was my focus – I gloried myself and business. I believe that God does work differently for everyone. Knowing this I find it hard to give people advice, why? Well I don’t want to steer them in a direction different than where God might lead them. But the main point I wanted to make was to write up “My Philosophy, My Way of Life”. Daily it reaffirms for me “What I believe, what I need to do next, even helping me escape “lies” that attempt me to judge others, judge myself, etc. Thanks for the post, thanks for listening. B
Hi Brian, thanks for your comment. Its good to hear that you are finding ways to be your authentic self. I have found that its actually OK to listen to other ideas but ultimately its our own choice to decide what we will believe and act upon. I think we can trust God to guard our hearts and minds in a way that doesn’t shut down any challenge to our existing beliefs. Its an exciting journey that we are on with Him. I wish you well on yours.
Well, I found this article well written, candid, honest, and praise-worthy. I have been a widely published evangelical author and editor for many years. My latest book: “The Pardonable Sin–The Greatest Prophecy Never Heard” speaks to these same subjects as this article and reflects the same understanding. My church, where I have attended for over 20 years and taught adult Bible classes much of the time, has refused to permit me to teach conditional immortality, annihilation, postmortem conversion. This rejection has continued now for two years and is hard to take. Eternal conscious torment constitutes slander against God in my view. My book. now undergoing revision and expansion is biblical throughout.
Hi Stanley, thanks for your kind words, I had a look on Amazon and you have been prolific! It must be hard for you to be restricted in what you can teach and I am increasingly finding that tension intolerable, though in defence of my church, I have not been teaching in recent years so that conflict hasn’t arisen. I often hear from folk that they don’t agree with conscious eternal torment but they figure “its not that important” so they stay quiet. Like you, I think it matters because it speaks of the nature of the Father. Its very hard to align the Father of the Prodigal Son story with an eternal torturer and changes the good news into the worst news. I also realise that my thinking on this(and many other issues) is always developing and is not a static once for all time decision. Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but my heart is settled on God’s goodness and love for us and his heart as revealed by Christ, will lead us into truth.
I’m looking forward to reading your book when its released!
Thank you for such a wonderful article, Geoff. You’ve articulated well a very real &, frankly, dangerously corrosive undercurrent amongst many Christians – merely paying lip service in regards to what they believe. Or worse yet…believing things not because it is what God Himself, through the Holy Spirit, has taught them; but because that is how someone else or “the Church” has always taught them to understand God/His Word.
I study the Word & converse with the Lord privately & let Him reveal His truth to me. And my own understanding so far is that eternal Hell (Gehenna) was never meant for us. That is only for the enemy & the fallen angels. In regards to us, His children, God is only LOVE. The only thing that God abhors is SIN. The enemies & the fallen angels chose to become sin incarnate, & so their destiny is Gehenna. But we are NOT sin, so God will ALWAYS love us.
Personally my understanding of it (which admittedly many Christians have issues with) is that if our souls do not rejoin with God’s originating Divine energy of love after physical death (going to Heaven) for whatever reason (or CHOOSES not to for whatever reason), then we must reincarnate & once again go through the “torment” of living here not fully connected to God where the enemy reigns for the time being. That may be wrong &, if so, I fervently hope that the Lord instructs me otherwise – but that is what He has impressed upon my own heart in regards to the topic.
And I understand that the topic of eternal damnation was not the actual point of your article, but only the example used. However, as has been shown in the comments if this article, the Lord speaks to us differently on many topics. And if I have to choose between believing what a mortal teacher/cleric tells me is the “proper interpretation” of a subject or what the Lord Himself impressed upon me…….I’m believing the Lord.
Hi Rebecca, thanks for your comments. I think true belief does need to speak to our soul deep down and scripture has a role but sometimes the church uses it incorrectly In my opinion. I will write next time on a realistic way we could use scripture. The main thing is that we dont have confliting stories or a picture that defames God. Its an exciting journey to be on, so if we can keep our minds open and remember to be kind to one another, even when we disagree, He will be glorified. God bless Geoff
That was a beautiful article, Geoff, and it is interesting to read the various comments it has inspired. Personally I believe that if God’s truth is more important to us than conforming to what others believe or teach or have written, then we will be led to that truth. It will be revealed to us. Thus if what is written about the nature of God and the nature of the afterlife in the Bible is true as stated, then it should sit well with us. It should feel right, true, unquestionable.
Geoff, you mentioned the Prodigal Son in a comment. I was thinking of that too, and the effort a shepherd takes to return the lost sheep to the flock (I am not well-versed in the Bible so please excuse my vagueness!). Those parables show God to be loving and caring. From reading I have done (that resonates with me), I understand the Hells as well as the spirit spheres to be on a gradient from darkness, ugliness, coldness (distance from God) to light/ peace/ beauty, and the spheres of greatest light being those of the Celestial Kingdom which Jesus inhabits and is the master of. The light (= love) that illuminates the Heavens emanates from God (no sun needed). Each person (i.e. a soul encased in a spirit-body) ends up initially in the sphere that resonates most closely with his or her soul. This is really a kindness. Yes, those who were cruel and sinful on Earth end up in the Hells, but this is actually more comfortable for them than having to exist amongst bright spirits who radiate love and piousness. The brightness would be painful to them. They are given the opportunity, over time, to repent, learn, and change, and thus progress to a relatively happier place. Any loving parent would give their wayward child such an opportunity, and God is the most loving parent of all.
Hi Jane, thanks for your kind comments. i think realising that Jesus isnt just like God, but that God is like Jesus is a critical thing. The love kindness and compassion shown by Jesus is what the Father is like. Its very like the first love some of us may experience when we meet God. Have a read of Sharon Bakers book Razing Hell. It has some great insights and talks of Gods judgement as redemptive and not punitive. I want to write again soon on how we should use the bible and maybe how we should not! Watch this space! Bless you on your adventure Geoff
So glad you sound like you don’t believe in the immoral and illogical notion of eternal hell, which is not taught in the scriptures. I agree that the vast majority of Christians really don’t believe it either, otherwise surely we would see evidence of proclamation far more often than we do. Promulgation of fear is the very worst way to build a belief. Happily it would seem that hell is dying, never to raise its ugly head again. RIP, hell,.
Hi David, yes my understanding of God’s justice and love does not include or necessitate eternal conscious torment. I have always wondered at those who grab the idea with such glee! Love is so much more compelling than fear, which is why families ruled by fear tend to be highly dysfunctional. Its this kind of idea retribution that leads men to determine that torture is OK and that people can be abused if they are deemed to be of the “other” side.
Yikes! I am afraid for you. Matthew 25:41. “Then I will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into EVERLASTING punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life”. (my emphasis) Who is speaking? Oh JESUS is. Be careful not to interpret Truth through your experiences, we conform to His Truth, He does not conform to ours.
HI Julie, thanks for your concern. I do indeed know and understand the perspective that you are repeating here but as my post explains, I have found using proof texts like this is not helpful and didn’t stand the test that was placed before it. I believe we need to be careful not to interpret text through our own 21st century context (and churches teaching) and with little regard to what Jesus was in fact addressing, which was a lack of compassion and care for the poor and downtrodden by the religious elite (Pharisees) who believed they knew what was needed to get into heaven. Its a bit ironic if you think about it. Interesting too that this story has nothing to do with what they believe…only what they do. I believe that we haven’t been served well by the imagery that I think you have in mind as you read this, and I do get that., we are so often products of what we have been taught in church (myself included) and that can be wrong, no matter how earnestly believed. I too have preached hellfire from the pulpit and truly I am sorry for it. I have just come to believe that God is altogether more loving and compassionate than those Dante inspired images. These words of Jesus are important, but they live within the context of a God whose love for us is redemptive, loving and compassionate, always. Always good and always love. Torture has no place in our God’s plans. If the idea of a torturing God doesn’t bother us, we just need to wait until a loved one, parent, child or dear friend is (by this understanding) suffering it. It makes you rethink it from the bottom up and the wonderful news is that if we can look again at these texts with eyes fixed on Gods goodness, we find that He is in fact like the Father of the prodigal son, running to meet us with tears of joy in his eyes. Julie I don’t expect to persuade you by a blog discussion but in the years ahead remember that the one interpretation you have been given is not the only one and that many Godly people have found that the good news is even better than we think. God bless you in your walk with Him. Geoff